Curse

LifeInfusion · Sep 09, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

I played on my Necro/Warrior/Smiter Monk (lol) in HM and it made me realize how bad Elementalists are in HM compared to other classes.

Firstly, energy storage is a waste of time because it makes you frontloaded (which isn't going to work in HM) whereas the Necro is popping energy left and right laughing at you. Secondly, 60 armor is paper thin and your "money" spells are 2 cast time mostly (Rodgort for pre-Nightfall, Lightning orb, Invoke lightning, eruption, obsidian flame, magnetic surge, unsteady ground).

It's not that you can't do damage, it is that you have to keep casting unless you are using AoEs that mobs run out of and deal way less damage than HB warriors.

That means it is better to fill your bar with PvE skills and glyph of lesser energy and dig into your secondary for things like Splinter Weapon than to bother with Elementalist skills (especially spammable 5 energy skills). This seems to be consensus. Couple this with the fact that Elementalist attunements get shattered everywhere, we have a disaster waiting to happen if you run something expensive (meteor shower, anyone?) that doesn't have assassin's promise or a full recharge skill. (or you can wait for a boss to die...)

Never mind that Elementalists' PvE skills are terrible for damage sake. Elemental Lord's +1 to attribute is never going to fly when there is Necrosis, Signet of Spirits+ Summon Spirits (60-80DPS...).

Let's look at utility:
b-surge
eruption
blurred vision
deep freeze

Sticking to Ether Renewal healing isn't going to fly for long...
It explains why most eles are seen farming with earth magic.

Sincerely,
Your neighborhood air elementalist and loyal servant of Dwayna

Shrimz · Sep 09, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I like to run the cookie cutter AP air build for HM for most cases. But also a SF spammer is always gun and works pretty well in HM (doing anywhere from like 30-110 dmg per SF). Just don't attack the rangers really. And Great Dwarf Weapon is absolutely awesome for any martial class (especially splinter barrage).
Fire Attune / Ele Lord / GDW / GoLE / SF / Glowing Gaze / Liquid Flame / Sin Support

But yeah, it always sucks having to recast your attunements and on occasion GoLE. But you have pretty good e-management with SF and glowing gaze.

And fire degen is armor-ignoring and is AoE so it's pretty awesome

Skyy High · Sep 09, 2010, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Yep. So what else is new?

HigherMinion · Sep 09, 2010, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Only utility of use to me on an ele is Ward of Stability, in PvE. And that's limited to two areas. With the condition buff to Blood Magic, I would have expected more love to the elementalist to keep it in line.

ruk1a · Sep 09, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

i think we can all agree ele needs buff in pve just keep making qq threads they'll fix eventually

HigherMinion · Sep 09, 2010, 07:56 AM // 07:56

I know Anet contradict themselves in the Elementalist's original description, but... Was this intended to be the case? After all, frontline are supposed to also be the highest DPS, due to extra counters.

If elemental damage is buffed, melee damage would have to be even higher; so it'll never happen.

Luminarus · Sep 09, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrimz

And Great Dwarf Weapon is absolutely awesome for any martial class (especially splinter barrage).

Sorry just had to quote this. I truly hope you didnt mean GDW is great on splinter barrage! One or the other, both is just fail.

On Topic, Eles suck as damage in pve, and have for a while. Your atleast 4th in line for buffs atm after derv para and apparently smiting.

ashes · Sep 09, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

AP, Churning Earth, Eruption?

Nice utility in HM

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2010, 11:02 AM // 11:02

While I do think elementalists should have a way to get a little more damage through, they're fine. They have a decent primary attribute, really nice skills under earth, wide AoE skills, functioning skill bars, and players love them.

reaper with no name · Sep 09, 2010, 11:11 AM // 11:11

The Elementalist is in a really messed up boat.

You could buff individual nukes, but then mobs become that much more powerful.

You could buff Intensity, but then you've got power creep and tank'n'spank becoming more popular (hello degenerate gameplay).

And if you buff the Elementalist without nerfing the hell out of ER, then the class becomes obscenely overpowered.

But if you nerf ER and try but fail to buff nukes, then the class ends up useless.

LifeInfusion · Sep 09, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

While I do think elementalists should have a way to get a little more damage through, they're fine. They have a decent primary attribute, really nice skills under earth, wide AoE skills, functioning skill bars, and players love them.

Because energy pool helps in HM? Energy Storage has never been a good primary attribute, which is why people ran Fast Cast Nukers and other BS like that. (It is part of the reason why they nerfed Glyph of lesser enegry to energy storage.) It was different in Prophecies when things didn't run around like chickens with their heads cut off and the monsters didn't instagib people with 400 damage AoEs. This meant you could run 16 attribute instead of a measley 12. Now you're relegated to 14 attribute unless you want 450-500HP. It is seriously something wrong when a secondary can run entire attribute lines better than a primary class in every situation (see N/Rt healers also have this problem but not so much in PvP).

As an illustration, Elementalist skills usually cost 10-15 to account for attunements. If you have 9 Energy Storage (8+1) and 14 (12+1+1) in the element of choice, it leaves 10 attribute ranks for things like Splinter weapon, Heal Party, or other such utility. Other professions actually cost 5-10 energy with the odd 15 energy skill.

Let's see, with an elementalist your main enemies are cast time, energy cost, and recharge. You have attunements that take up one valuable slot on your bar, that take 2 seconds to cast and get shattered leaving you naked and energy hungry. The money skills like Lightning orb or Searing Flames take 15 energy...so without the attunements and/or things like Glowing Gaze you're screwed. If you get interrupted by d-shot, savage shot, punishing shot, or w/e you're screwed again, because you also have 60 armor. By the way, Rangers love killing elementalists because we do no damage to them and they have a retardedly easy time interrupting.

Play a necro and then play an elementalist. Tell me who has better energy management. Signet of Lost Souls basically says "haha, you suck" to Energy Storage. Feel free to put 3 points in energy storage when you run a 12+2 and 12+1 split though (unless you use Glowing Gaze/Glowing Ice/Shock arrow/Glowstone)

You have a total tease of a skill in Master of Magic, " you gain +0...2...2 Energy regeneration", but it ends when you use non-ele skills like Pain Inverter. Ether Prodigy used to be a favorite for pumping out heal parties and blind spam, but Lyssa's Aura is better. But devoting an elite to energy management means you can't use things like Blinding Surge and it doesn't help with recharge.

Play a mesmer with Wastrel's Demise, Mistrust, Empathy, Overload, Wastrel's Worry, and cry of frustration. Or alternately, wandering eye, clumsiness, Ineptitude. Hell, even slap it on your elementalist. Mesmer primaries get reduced recharge AND cast time for ALL mesmer spells and signets. Basically everything you get on a staff/wand/focus.

Play as a Ritualist secondary with Signet of Spirits. Every skill on that bar is shorter than 2 seconds in cast time and doesn't take 15 energy to run. No other class will do it better than them since they have Spawning Power which got buffed immensely. Ritualists also get Ancestor's Rage, which is armor ignoring even though it is lightning damage. In terms of AoE, they have Spirit Rift which is in the same line as a whole bunch of utility.

Play as a monk secondary and RoJ the shit out of everything. Then play an elementalist and realize you are only used for damage that isn't even as high as other classes', while having minimal utility unless you spread your attributes.

Where do you see the most elementalists? Farming Raptors and Glint's Challenge. If that doesn't suggest something is wrong, I don't know what.

Quote:

You could buff individual nukes, but then mobs become that much more powerful.

You could buff Intensity, but then you've got power creep and tank'n'spank becoming more popular (hello degenerate gameplay).

And if you buff the Elementalist without nerfing the hell out of ER, then the class becomes obscenely overpowered.

I don't want to see the elementalist get pigeonholed into "meteor shower, searing flames, glowing gaze" or "rodgort spam with dual attunements" because those are very boring and there's no utility. Things like Lightning Orb and Ebon Hawk-Stoning are gimmicky since they are projectiles and other skills like Crystal Wave , Bed of Coals, or Aftershock don't even belong on a caster that is unbuffed (enchantments get shattered by the way). Compare it to an SS necro who could put out weakness, poison, and other conditions and use Foul Feast. Necros also have Spoil Victor which makes bosses die but Pain Inverter is sort of the same thing so we can let that one slide. A Ritualist who can pump out Splinter Weapon, Spirit Rift, AND Signet of Spirits will always be a better pick. Even mesmers do more direct damage now (see the buffed Clumsiness, Mistrust, Cry of Frustration,) and have the added utility of shattering hexes, removing enchantments, interrupting with <1/4 second cast. They all have options.

If anything I want to see more PvE versions of Elementalist skills that have utility and don't result in mobs instagibbing people. Eruption and Churning Earth are nice, but I think it is mindless gameplay when an elementalist boss does 400 damage in one spell but we do 50 damage when the listed damage is 100. That's the main issue at hand, elementalists and ritualists in HM do insane damage while player elementalists do about as much as hundred blades on a warrior but with 50x the energy usage and half the armor (96 or 116 physical vs 60). The most solid skillbars have always been ones that carry secondary skills, i.e. heal party, splinter, etc. A good example is the Mind Blast rodgort bar with secondary skills.

Paragons are good example of what a difference PvE skills have. "There's Nothing to Fear" is invaluable.

I don't see what the fuss about Lightning Orb is, it is more a utility skill than "damage". Unless you get the HSR to activate on your weapons, it is on 5 recharge. Even when I get the odd 140-150 damage, that is 28-30DPS without accounting for cast time and more like 20-21DPs with cast time (one spirit of pain at 12 attribute, anyone?) and only one one target. It's a nice spike to prep the physicals to beat the mobs in only for the cracked armor, especially with GFTE on a Paragon, but for pure damage it isn't much. Even a Hundred Blades warrior with no attack skills can do better.

P.S. Plus Gwen can spin in a really awesome way when she casts. Elementalists like Sousuke, Vekk, and Zhed don't and tend to die a lot more. (I really envy Sousuke's armor detail

.)

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Because energy pool helps in HM?

Depending on your build, yes absolutely. It can be used to your advantage. Even though Ether Renewal builds use monk attributes, it requires a very high energy pool for spikes and damage packs. That's just one example though.

Quote:

Play a mesmer with Wastrel's Demise. Hell, even slap it on your elementalist.

It will do 0-11 damage by itself and without skillful play. It also doesn't have a wide AoE area.

Quote:

No other class will do it better than them since they have Spawning Power which got buffed immensely.

Most if not nearly all ritualist players don't invest or invest much in spawning power for SoS spirit spam.

Quote:

Play as a monk secondary and RoJ the shit out of everything.

Terrible attribute. Smite has some nice skills, but it's not that great for general play. The good skills it does have rarely find themselves on the same bar, generally has other attributes involved when used, or used on other professions for synergy reasons.

Quote:

Compare it to an SS necro who could put out weakness, poison, and other conditions and use Foul Feast.

You complain about damage, but then somehow poison is some neat elite thing. You Are All Weaklings spreads weakness without any attribute investment.

LifeInfusion · Sep 09, 2010, 02:02 PM // 14:02

High energy pool can be supplemented with high energy sets. The ER E/Mo healer is a gimmick, even more so than the E/Mo Ether Prodigy healers of old. There's a reason why they used to call skills that were nerfed "Ether Renewaled".

Spawning Power helps with survivability of spirits, lengthens duration on Splinter, and also many useful skills are in Spawning Power such as Attuned was Songkai. I didn't say that it is the be all and end all (see N/Rt).

The point about Monk Smiting Prayers is valid to an extent. Smiting Prayers has ridiculous utility, such as smite hex, smite condition, and reversal of damage. Smiter's Boon makes it useful as a utility line and Divine Favor lets you pump out Divine Healing to support your party.

The thing is necromancers can put out the conditions in bulk (i.e. bleeding, poison, and weakness at the same time). The majority of elementalist conditions are applied to a single target and only one condition is applied. So, weakness and 40 damage (reduced to 20 maybe) or weakness on one target +50 damage instead of 90... versus mass Weakness and Poison... it's more about the condition stacks than the conditions.

I'm not asking for big damage, some more utility and party support would be nice.

(Don't mind me, I'm just playing devil's advocate. It's nothing personal.)

I Hate Chips · Sep 09, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrimz

And Great Dwarf Weapon is absolutely awesome for any martial class (especially splinter barrage).

Uhmm since when does Great Dwarf Weapon stack with splinter weapon

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

High energy pool can be supplemented with high energy sets.

A high energy pool can be use with high energy sets or alone without the drawbacks.

Quote:

Spawning Power helps with survivability of spirits, lengthens duration on Splinter, and also many useful skills are in Spawning Power such as Attuned was Songkai.

It can help the survivability of spirits, but so can having higher attribute points in the attributes you already invested in. Attuned was Songkai is an item spell, which may often be undesired.

Quote:

The thing is necromancers can put out the conditions in bulk.

What conditions you're spreading is more important than bulk, but I agree AoE conditions are better assuming they're more useful conditions.

Xenomortis · Sep 09, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You could buff individual nukes, but then mobs become that much more powerful.

You could buff Intensity, but then you've got power creep and tank'n'spank becoming more popular (hello degenerate gameplay).

Increasing the power of individual nukes won't do anything until you push them close to buffed physicals. This is then immediately broken by how compressed the builds would be in comparison.
The same applies to making Intensity an insane Ele buff. I care little for the mobs that use these nukes, since Prot Spirit covers this.

This has been discussed to death. Eles and casters in general suffer as damage dealers compared to physicals simply because they have no comparable support structure that the physicals have.
Rits only get pushed ahead of the Ele due to spirits and Necromancers have to use Minions or act as part of the support structure that pushes physicals ahead.

WarcryOfTruth · Sep 09, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Unless I'm just stupid, I think HM killed Elementalists. The massive armor bonus those foes have make it almost exclusive to armor ignoring professions. Spiteful Spirit, Mark of Pain, Ray of Judgment, Cry of Pain, Visions of Regret, just to name a few. Go into an area in NM and cast Searing Flames twice (once for the burning, once for the damage), keep track of the number. Go again in HM and see the difference, it is drastically lower, but the NM number is in my opinion where the elementalist should be.

Maybe I'm thinking too much, but that's what I've observed.

Cuilan · Sep 09, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

You're obviously aren't going to run a normal mode build in hard mode and expect the same results.

I Hate Chips · Sep 09, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

true true, elementalist are better for utility in HM

Skyy High · Sep 09, 2010, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I know Anet contradict themselves in the Elementalist's original description, but... Was this intended to be the case? After all, frontline are supposed to also be the highest DPS, due to extra counters.

I don't think they really intended for this, no. Ele damage is perfectly fine, even really good, in NM. The problem was buffing the armor of HM foes, which pretty much only hurt eles as far as damage goes.